Preston Pysh (00:02:00):

Let’s talk some of the qualitative narratives because a year ago when we were having this conversation, what were some of the things that you kind of anticipated playing out like businesses putting on their balance sheet or whatever that might have been and has it exceeded that expectation that you would’ve had, call it a year ago to where we are today? Or is this kind of where you expected this thing to run?

Jeff Booth (00:02:24):

You obviously can’t tell the daily movements or what’s going to happen there. I actually remember you saying at that time, this is going to run into the new year. I think your prediction on what it would be in price point was right on the money that time. If you talk about the big macro struggle that would the big forces which were kind of predicted in my book and predicted out of this is you have technology that’s trying to drive prices down, moving exponentially and you have monetary using or inflation or central bank trying to stop that from happening. Because if that happens, the entire system resets through a deflationary spiral. And so through that lens of those two giant forces, one trying to save our time, one trying to make everything price more and waste our time, you see the great human tragedy for what’s happening.

Jeff Booth (00:03:22):

The problem is there’s no way out of the existing system. And when we talk about the inflation deflation debate and everything else, I think what’s lost on people is the inflation debate is a non-free market debate. The free market is [inaudible 00:03:39] and everybody that’s talking about inflation is saying, well, we’re going to have inflation to right because there’s no other way to save the system. If central banks suffering, they have to accelerate. They have to do more over time. If they stop or slow, you’re going to tip into deflation and expire.

Jeff Booth (00:04:01):

So those are some pretty big macro trends that are fighting each other. And what ends up happening is most people measure the system by the system because the system is responsible for everything around them, their GDP, housing prices, food prices, everything else, their wages. They can’t even see that they’re stuck into a system and everything’s just reinforcing that system. So the system changes typically never come from the inside. The system doesn’t change itself from the inside. It’s imposed from the outside. That’s what technology does, it lowers the cost so dramatically or changes the narrative so dramatically that people adopt a new system. That’s what’s happening through the lens of Bitcoin today.

Preston Pysh (00:04:50):

I think that when I look around at what is the really, really big thing that’s just shining a flashlight on all of this. Almost like we’re looking in the house for the cockroaches and we shine the light in the corner and they’re just spewing out. And the thing that I think that that is, is the supply chain. I think the supply chain is illuminating and I think it’s just starting to illuminate what is about to just unfold into this nasty, nasty looking thing. They’re getting CPI prints over 5% here in the US for six, seven months now straight and the projection and the trend is demonstrating that it’s going to get worse or at least hold that 5%. So what are your thoughts on that idea?

Jeff Booth (00:05:38):

I try not to… So all of these, I look at it pretty simply, when you have misinformation and money. So you essentially have shift of a base layer of money or misinformation and money that must create more misinformation in money because it’s not the free market. It is the opposite of the free market. Then as a byproduct of that, you must have greater misinformation everywhere.

Jeff Booth (00:06:03):

And that control of that message, that control of that misinformation, central banks are losing control of that narrative because what’s happening is the more that that happens… there never used to be an escape valve. So if you look at gold, when that used to happen, they could impose financial repression by grabbing all the gold because it needed to be centralized and forcing that inflation which is a destruction of your time or savings on society. So through financial repression, they could essentially hold you in the country, own your assets and they replace everything else. That’s not able to happen today.

Jeff Booth (00:06:44):

And so with social media and more voices on the internet, there’s more people, the signal is showing through that noise. So as you create more misinformation, it’s just driving and clarity through the signal. Voices like you, me, many others that have been preaching this for a long time, what’s happening. And that’s actually what’s happening with Bitcoin is it’s more of an emergent phenomenon and every single person for every single voice that joins and understands what’s happening. Once you see it, you can’t see it.

Jeff Booth (00:07:18):

And so that emergent phenomenon is getting stronger and stronger and stronger and-

Preston Pysh (00:07:22):

It’s not linear.

Jeff Booth (00:07:24):

Exactly. It’s a network effect that you could look at every one of us as almost a node in the system. It makes it some of us actual nodes in the system with right but, but as a node in the system, making an entire thing stronger, it’s really hard to stop.

Jeff Booth (00:07:40):

So when you think about supply chain issues and all of this, these are tiny… And they’re not tiny, but they’re predictable patterns out of manipulating money that are bound to accelerate. So what would happen if supply chains start to impact food, which they will so then governments will try to control food with regulatory capture over different things to be able to lower the cost of food or to make sure that they’re not at risk as budget. So you just have a breaking of all the rule all over the world. And at the same time that I’m on some technology food boards. You have technology that’s lowering the cost of food in real time that may be allowed to able to localize that food give more for less. So you’re driving… and that more for less is deflation.

Preston Pysh (00:08:34):

And I think this is an important part, Jeff, that more for less is dependent on technology to supply it, right? And so when we talk about the erosion of supply chains and we talk about the complex parts that are required to manifest this technological leap in productivity that is happening everywhere and you’re talking specifically about food, but when you start breaking down the supply chain and the lowest level commodity is starting to break because of a weather pattern and you had just in time optimization of deliveries, right? With all your lean six sigma, that’s been optimized throughout every ounce of these supply chains.

Preston Pysh (00:09:15):

But when you get up to the top of that supply chain and you start talking about complex parts and technological parts, just computer boards, and you’re seeing it in cars and there’s things way more complex than that. If they’re starting to be delays there and they’ve become accustomed to it always functioning perfectly and always being able to get it just in time with six sigma, and all of a sudden, there, there starts to be a few delays here then there and then everywhere else in the supply chain, all of a sudden your costs start manifesting themselves. They start manifesting in a way that the fed can’t control that.

Jeff Booth (00:09:54):

And there’s a timeline there and then what ends up happening… and one thing is if you think about systems, what ends up happening is systems that you centralize get more and more unstable. So you sacrifice for a long time and you keep doing it. And if you try to take out the kind of changes in that, and you keep on centralizing, they get more unstable. So if you think about this in supply chains for chips, for example, you’re exactly right. But what do you think will happen as a result of this? Is people now know this risk and because of the price rising and the shortage, you’re going to have a whole bunch of more localized matter of fact decentralization of that so that you avoid that risk. With technology, again, you’re able to do that. There’s for sure impacts in the short term before and some of these impacts like say, chip manufacturers that takes a long time to spin up. So those impacts can go on for a lot longer.

Preston Pysh (00:10:56):

Then you’re seeing governments trying, okay, well, we need more chips so let’s manufacture that. So let’s just throw a bunch of money at it. Let’s build more than what we probably need. Let’s overreact to it. And then, you’re just throwing further perturbations in the supply demand curve for that one specific thing. But then they’re doing it across the board for everything.

Jeff Booth (00:11:17):

All those things that you’re doing, and just think about any business and each thing that’s doing this is actually imposing more deflation because everything moving into a digital infrastructure, which is imposing. Now, that might not come tomorrow, it might come later on but you’re imposing and you’re printing more money to impose more deflation. So you’re trying to push prices up.

Jeff Booth (00:11:38):

Remember when I talked about, I’ve talked about this many times, but I don’t know if it was specifically in my book when I predicted and I said, looking back over the last 20 years, we’ve had $185 trillion of stimulus to grow the economy $46 trillion. That’s looking backwards on technology and that’s to offset what we’ve been talking about for the last 20 years, essentially pushing prices up. Where has that money gone to? Education, housing prices, all of the… So created distortions and essentially, it’s Robinhood in reverse. You steal from the middle class and give to the rich. There’s less and less people at the top and more and more people at the bottom.

Jeff Booth (00:12:17):

You can see what ends up happening to society as a result of that. Now the biggest the part is and I think this is where the book predicted this future. The biggest part was most of the deflation is in front of us. And when I talk about deflation in that case, I’m talking about a system change to a different world, right? What Bitcoin would allow us to do. But most of the deflation is in front of us and it’s a good thing for humanity.

Jeff Booth (00:12:48):

It’s a terrible thing for our existing monetary system. So what can we expect just because those trends are moving in opposite directions and each one is reinforcing the other, we can expect way more easy. We can expect… It has to offset and that more easing or that more misinformation creates more misinformation, havoc everywhere in the world. And for a long time, it’s been the central thing, driving just what every other conversation that nobody’s talking about.

Preston Pysh (00:13:22):

Now, you and I have talked about how the speed at which this transition takes place, the more drawn out or smooth that we can make that transition, not that we have any control over it, the better for humanity, but history has demonstrated that when trust erodes in a currency, it typically plays out pretty fast. And even though that might not be the scenario that you and I both want, if I was going to put probabilities on one or the other, I’m putting the higher probability on it actually playing out faster than what many expect. What does that mean for labor? What does that mean for just people trying to stay employed? Because I mean, you’re going to have all these zombie companies that we all know are out there that have been kept alive for decades finally come to the realization that the game’s over, the jig’s up.

Jeff Booth (00:14:13):

So it’s way more complicated. We’ll get it into that. So it’s that and a whole bunch. So just think about the incongruence in our own thinking. In one sense, we want our housing to go up forever. We believe our housing will go up forever and we leave our housing. We don’t want that to go down but it’s only gone up over the last 20 years because we’ve stimulated economies by $185 trillion. And we know it’ll fall precipitously. If that stimulus doesn’t keep coming.

Jeff Booth (00:14:42):

We know if stimulus does keep coming, then it ends in concentration of all power in very few hands and regulatory capture. That’s what US looks like China. And when I say very few hands, imagine where technology takes us with artificial intelligence and what people will do to stand up to dictatorship today. Very few people will stand up to that because if you stand up to it, you get killed, right? Think Nalvany in Russia of where you get first clue.

Jeff Booth (00:15:13):

And so now think of who should have power? Who should have domain over everybody with an AI and would that person change their mind? So if you think about that path, that’s where the existing system takes us. Or if you believe that we should live in a world that you manipulate money.

Preston Pysh (00:15:33):

This is without Bitcoin in the picture?

Jeff Booth (00:15:35):

Without Bitcoin in the picture or if Bitcoin didn’t win. I know it’s going to win because I think it’s inevitable, but it’s, if Bitcoin didn’t win and why there would be a whole bunch of… If I was that person and I wanted that, then I would try to create a whole bunch of misinformation as well. And even if I didn’t, I might not even know how bad that took us. Right? I might just be reacting to a system and trying to make sure that the system didn’t collapse, because I feared the system collapse would be worse but that’s where that system takes us.

Jeff Booth (00:16:11):

And that’s a very dystopian world that doesn’t have a high probability of happening, but nonetheless, it doesn’t have a zero probability of happening. And that’s probably my biggest reason for Bitcoin besides truth, honesty, fair rules, everything else. But that’s probably, if I said the top stuff, that’s probably…

Jeff Booth (00:16:34):

Now think about that system today and now we’ll go into the other side and Bitcoin accelerates today, tomorrow currencies collapse, Bitcoin accelerates and everything else and Bitcoin stuff. There would be no food on the shops. There would be societal breakdown completely. And you would have dictators emerge into that in a different capacity, might not be good for Bitcoin. In the end, I don’t think anything would change it. It sure wouldn’t be good for people so I like to think about Bitcoin here. And this is why and through company lens, I like to think about it like this, what really smart companies do and it’s super rare, the really great monopolies do is they transition themselves but they know they can’t transition themselves from the inside so they set up a separate lab that tries to compete against the company. And that’s separate lab is typically then super secret because if anybody knows in the existing company that and network transfer to the new company, that new company gets killed before, because there’s just so much inertia in the existing company.

Jeff Booth (00:17:43):

So good example of this would be Apple and the iPhone. I have to run the existing company. Will I take out what the company is moving to and do a separate secret facility to be able to run that. Steve Jobs was great at that and then, as that transitions, it moves everything to the new company. So it allows you to run one while you move the vision forward, central banks can’t do that.

Jeff Booth (00:18:09):

That’s really difficult for central banks, especially globally interconnected central banks it’s really difficult but what this would look like, or another example, imagine Amazon starts in 99 or started 95, I guess, 96, Amazon starts in 95 and it just sells books. In 2000, all retail stores collapsed. Just imagine they all collapse and Amazon doesn’t sell very many things yet. Where would you get your groceries? Where would you get your everything else? So if you think about that lens, today we’re living in this system measuring the system, Bitcoin is emerging and it’s emerging really quickly layer two, Taproot integration, everything else that’s going to happen still to come. But if it happened right now, you don’t have an… That network transfer hasn’t happened enough that you could kind of build a bridge to the other side.

Jeff Booth (00:19:06):

And what’s happening is what I’m super excited about with layer two, with everything else is you’re building the bridge to the other side. And yes, the people that are in early have more of the opportunity. And of course, just like the people that were in early in Amazon, if you held it at $5 and went all way up, instead of selling along the way, you have way more of the opportunity, because it is a network transfer from one system to another. But those bridges or lane need to be, which is happening, and what gives me hope on that is the speed of which it’s happening and innovation moving now to the Bitcoin rails and what’s happening there in that ecosystem.

Jeff Booth (00:19:53):

Companies, countries and the ecosystem, and people are starting to build to it. And so that accelerates and what a lot of people do but most people is they predict the present forward. They don’t predict the future. They won’t change. Everything else changes around them but they don’t change, their minds don’t change. And so what’s happening right now is Bitcoin’s doing that and changing minds and moving more and more people. And hopefully that happens at a rate that you can have that bridge.

Preston Pysh (00:20:30):

So is five years, enough time for this bridge that you’re referring to?

Jeff Booth (00:20:35):

Yeah. So it might happen faster than… When you say Hyper-Bitcoinization, it’s the second layer that it could operate at. This is a currency. It’s going to be important because when things collapse violently, you need something to move to.

Preston Pysh (00:20:54):

Yeah. In your first example where you were talking more about the dystopian where the power and the buying power and the control is being manifested into smaller and smaller group of hands. What I find interesting about Bitcoin is you do have the opposite of that because most people are in debt up to their eyeballs with their real estate.

Preston Pysh (00:21:16):

And if you do go through something like this and they start receiving a salary in Bitcoin, all of a sudden it gets really easy to start making payments on the house and basically take ownership of all that equity, which I think is by contract, distributed pretty amongst all the people across, at least in the United States, I’m assuming most of the rest of the world is kind of similar to the United States, with respect to people having a contract that says that they own their house. Even though most of the debt on the house is owned by the bank, they do own that equity. And that would be a windfall for most of these people if we went through some type of transition and I mean, there’s, there’s your effective “debt Jubilee” as far as I’m concerned.

Jeff Booth (00:21:59):

That’s true. But if you said, is that the lower class or the middle and lower class, many of them don’t own their own the-

Preston Pysh (00:22:06):

Own the house, they’re renting.

Jeff Booth (00:22:07):

They rent and the prices of the rents are going up. Prices of food are going up and everything else. And a lot of those people believe that it’s capitalism that’s created that and it’s free market that’s created that. And that’s actually why we have to be careful when I say this, we have to understand other people’s, what they might go through and to come to that belief because it’s a complete opposite of capitalism or free market that is imposed. It is a distortion of markets that impose that and hurts those people. Those two people most left out. When I said, we don’t understand how much our own minds will change and how much we’ll when you… when I saw a question that was asked, people talk about what happened in Germany and everything else.

Jeff Booth (00:22:53):

I don’t think about Hitler specifically when I think about Germany. I think about the millions of people that changed their mind and said that was okay to do to other people or didn’t stand up and say, that’s wrong. And then, I think we’re the same meat sacks today. So if that could happen to people before and we think that it couldn’t happen to us, then very few people can stand up to that type of pressure. So you have that type of pressure that’s being imposed on society out of this inflationary policy. You are creating a whole bunch of these people who believe it’s capitalism, free market and everything else and it’s those people’s fault that did that and they believe it. And so can you imagine a dictator stepping in to ignite that? And I can.

Jeff Booth (00:23:47):

And so if you keep running this system, that’s the way, it turns pretty dystopian pretty fast and with technology, it just gets more, more and more so for quick look. So people will look at the Boston Robotics 10 years ago. And if you looked at that 10 years ago, you would’ve never predicted what it is today. So just look at the videos 10 years ago versus today and see what that’s done, but then they’ll have an anchor in their mind about the robot dog and back flipping humanoid, and they’ll think, oh, that’s what it looks 10 years from now and it won’t look anything like that.

Jeff Booth (00:24:24):

The rate of this progress is staggering. And so when you think about these things, that rate of progress is job destroying. If you think about where AI is going, where robots would do a whole bunch of stuff, they neutralize everything else. It’s job destroying. And if you try to artificially prop up jobs by printing money, you just concentrate all power in few hands. And so as the jobs get destroyed, the prices have to fall to match or, or it looks pretty… and again, this is unfortunately true… well, it’s fortunately true because we are living in a transition that because of Bitcoin can get us to the other side.

Preston Pysh (00:25:09):

How do you guard against the scenario that you described as far as you could see how leaders could emerge that could, this is probably the bad phrasing, but Hitler-like throughout the world, how does humanity guard against something like that? Is it just knowledge and dissemination of that knowledge?

Jeff Booth (00:25:30):

So it’s people like you, it’s people like me talking about it and a whole bunch of people in the Bitcoin community are trying to bring more people on because it’s that important. And so it is knowledge. What gives me hope in this and that’s why I try to be… sometimes I have to check myself too, because when somebody says something just ignorant, [crosstalk 00:25:56].

Preston Pysh (00:25:56):

I’m way more guilty than you, Jeff.

Jeff Booth (00:25:57):

Yeah. But you hear it 100,000 times, you hear it over and over and over again, you just know like, you can’t be that dense. You cannot be that dense or you must check your bias or privilege or something. And I want to say it. I want to scream it. But I realize, okay, would I help the cause by doing it? And it can’t hurt me. I just care more about the other people that it might impact. So I try to stay pretty levelheaded on that whole conversation because I don’t want to… I want to-

Preston Pysh (00:26:32):

I need to take your advice, Jeff.

Jeff Booth (00:26:35):

You don’t need to take anyone’s advice. Everybody comes to Bitcoin in their own way and you have brought more people on than through inviting neon, through inviting a whole bunch of other people.

Preston Pysh (00:26:46):

It’s so frustrating though. It gets so frustrating. I mean, there’s times when you just want to just scream. I mean, the stupidity that’s out there and some of the things that are being, I mean, did you see the CNBC post it? They deleted it. Thank God. But they literally published an article on why higher inflation is good. That was the title of the article. What insanity are we living in? And I retweeted and I said, who is paying for this?

Jeff Booth (00:27:18):

Again, that system must create more information. And as a result of the more information, must create more regulatory capture and more concentration of control. It’s just a system problem and whether you’re in the system. And so one of the things that’s probably most, I just tune them out. The people that essentially know it’s a wrong know it and will advocate for the system anyways.

Jeff Booth (00:27:46):

So those people, I do, it’s just okay. Block or ignore. And I don’t block very many people but there’s a couple there that I just, okay. But again, we have to expect that. We have to expect and then, the good news, the really good news is the more you lie when the truth is out there, as long as you don’t control all the airwaves, more people find the truth.

Jeff Booth (00:28:15):

So more information gets people searching for the truth. And so you have this chaos today, what feels like chaos as one system like it’s throwing everything against this because it needs to and more people are finding it in their own way through this. And my hope is that’s what you’re seeing in the price. Price is rising because of that emergent phenomenon and more people finding it and holding it.

Preston Pysh (00:28:42):

So, a little bit more on the supply chain dichotomy with interest rates. So we’ve got the 10 year, I think it’s at like 1.5%, somewhere in that range. And we’ve got CPI at 5.5 or 4 or whatever it is. And that’s if you buy and believe that CPI is like… That’s given at the benefit of the doubt. You can’t even hide that anymore. And so you got nearly a 400 basis point negative spread. I’ve been asking everybody that comes on the show recently, this question but I think it’s such an important question because you just can’t hide the fact that every single bond, every bond on the planet, I mean, we’re talking hundreds of trillions of dollars-

Jeff Booth (00:29:31):

130 trillion, I think is so, yeah.

Preston Pysh (00:29:33):

… is negative yielding, every one of them on a real basis.

Jeff Booth (00:29:39):

By the way, we talked about this, I… Whether we talked about it on your show a year and a half ago or if it was afterwards, we talked about this very issue and I remember talking that the structure, they’re all effectively going to say or if you could impose financial repression, if you could, for the people that stay there, they’re going to get killed.

Preston Pysh (00:30:03):

Killed, 100% impairment.

Jeff Booth (00:30:05):

Yeah, 100% impairment over time, but you can’t impose financial repression because then there’s an escape valve in Bitcoin. That’s what’s happening. In the world before, you could impose that, close your borders or whatever or lock up all the gold, force that on society and pay back the debt in cheaper dollars and start again. US imposed that in the series but at that time, US was kind of the one and only rising power right? At the time and they had a bunch of gold to be able to do that. US looks different today so they can’t play that same trick and there’s Bitcoin. So as more people realize what’s happening, right now, if you’re on zero allocation to Bitcoin and you’re all in the existing system, I don’t know what you’re thinking.

Preston Pysh (00:30:55):

Hey, so I was listening to a Ray Dalio interview that I think happened just like in the last week or two. Andrew Sorkin was hitting him pretty hard on Bitcoin specifically and was like, Hey, Ray, you and Bitcoin, this and that. And the thing that really caught my attention and just kind of made me… my eyebrow went up, he says, what do you think about… It’s too big now but governments can’t ban it. And Ray says, no. I see it actually the exact opposite of that. I see it that it’s actually gotten easier for them to ban it. And then he gave like, this really didn’t give a response as to why. And I was just like, boy, oh, boy, do I disagree with you? But maybe it’s because of where I sit. And I’m just kind of curious to hear your thoughts. I wish I could just play the clip for you because it made my…I was like, what?

Jeff Booth (00:31:46):

I think that’s nonsense. I think there are some things that we need to think about in the transition to the other side. If you had a whole bunch of Bitcoin on exchanges or if you had concentrated amounts of Bitcoin, I think that would be easier but as a decentralized people holding in their own keys, why that’s so important. I think that’s virtually impossible.

Jeff Booth (00:32:09):

And again, one of the things, and Ray’s a smart guy, but when you think about public figures who are trying to drive a different agenda, think about Ray investing in China. And when you have funds that is that large and you’re trying to outperform other markets and you’re making big bets. I can’t deny that-

Preston Pysh (00:32:31):

Not an easy job.

Jeff Booth (00:32:34):

I can’t imagine what his portfolio looks like in January. When I said regulatory capture as the government goes after some of the type companies and changes because they have to, there is no free market. You’re in a manipulated market. And so now Ray has a whole bunch of his investor allocate capital and everything else in a market that his voice needs to be prosystem. Or I can understand why it is because Bitcoin unwinds a whole bunch of those trades. I do not get why he wouldn’t be more yet even as a protection against what he’s got the risk on on the other side. But I do understand the kind of bias that takes place, when you’re in a system. You measure the system from the system.

Preston Pysh (00:33:24):

You know when we were talking about interest rates, so you’re seeing in general, the market is selling off. The bond market is selling off. You’re seeing yields coming up, pretty precipitously, federal funds rate still sitting down at zero, nothing percent but you’re seeing the rest of the bond yield curve selling off and rates are coming up. This is a little different than what we’ve seen for the last 40 years with how this plays out. Typically, the central banks will come in, oh, we’re raising rates then there’ll be a little bit of sell off throughout the curve and this time they’re still saying, hey, we’re going to stay down here at zero and the rest of the curve is selling off.

Jeff Booth (00:34:07):

Yeah. So they have to and they have to do yield control, they have control and they have to do more easing so anything that they say and the free market says, and the free market can at push up rates because there will be-

Preston Pysh (00:34:23):

Beyond a certain point.

Jeff Booth (00:34:25):

Yeah. Because governments have to step in. Why? Pretty easy to see that whole mirage of growth forever is just manipulated money but the worst part about that, that manipulated money isn’t actually money sitting in a bank account. It is just a credit based system. And so if you let all that manipulation of money, that credit based system that’s expanded way out of touch contract. The whole thing resets, and that counterpart risk that contagion goes across the world and you have a reset through a different type of reset. So through that lens, you can see for sure, all across the globe, there’s going to be more rent and more yield control.

Preston Pysh (00:35:09):

So Plan B, myself and you were talking with Peter McCormick and I think Peter asked us about whether another March 2020 liquidity shock could happen in the markets and if so, would Bitcoin go down? And I think all three of us were like, yep, it’s going to go down if something like that plays out again. Describe this a little bit more from your vantage point and do you see another shock to the system where basically the economy throws a fit and there’s impairment across all this credit?

Jeff Booth (00:35:44):

An analogy first, in unstable markets, we’re building more and greater instability in the market all over the place. And everybody’s looking for which snowflake is going to cause the avalanche and measuring the snowflakes doesn’t much matter. The avalanche is coming and it could come in a number of different ways. My hope is the avalanche comes in a position that Bitcoin is further enough along kind of run that you can transition. But that’s before it takes the entire system down, normally the taking the system down happens through when I said, we change our minds, we elect leaders who will be dictators and then change. We change our minds to follow those. We change our minds following them right into war. And that’s how they’ve changed, normally comes. We get controlled through that. It’s somebody else’s fault.

Jeff Booth (00:36:39):

We go to war, we reset a currency through war, victor resets currency starts over again. So my hope is Bitcoin allows that not to happen. If you had, let’s just use the example before, if you deflation, if you allowed that to happen, if governments didn’t keep printing and it started to have deflation and then, you would have a credit unwind. And just, everything would keep unwinding and governments would be forced to come in and essentially nationalize their banks, save their banks and everything else.

Jeff Booth (00:37:11):

Otherwise, you would have what’s happening in Lebanon right now. Banks would close. People could get their money, you can get to. And what would your housing look like in that environment? What would the price of your housing be? What would this street look like? What would it look like walking down the street. Imagine that catastrophe and what that would look like. But if you allowed deflation to happen, that’s what would happen because it would keep on unwinding.

Jeff Booth (00:37:39):

In that event, for a while, US dollar would get really strong because people would hoard it and Bitcoin might fall for some time because what would happen in that event is people would sell whatever they’d have to be able… they’d sell their best assets because they’d have to sell something to get money. So in that event, in that type of collapse, you could expect a short term correction in Bitcoin.

Preston Pysh (00:38:08):

I want to just explain something for people that are hearing this, the reason that the Jeff made the comment that the dollar would bid and that you’d have a run on dollars in this scenario is because most of what is “money” people refer to as money in the system is credit itself. I don’t know what percent but Jeff, what is it? Like three fourths of it is credit?

Jeff Booth (00:38:33):

More than that. It’s all credit. Yeah. Considering we live in a credit based system.

Preston Pysh (00:38:38):

And so since most of all of it is credit and a very small proportion of it is actual monetary baseline dollars in the system, when you start getting into this impairment of credit, like let’s say I owe Jeff $1000 and then he owes another person, $1000. If I can’t pay him $1000, well now all of a sudden, he can’t pay the other person a $1000 because what was an asset to him, that was a liability to me became impaired.

Preston Pysh (00:39:09):

And so when most of the system is made up of these agreements that were created out of thin air that aren’t actually backed by real dollars that I can produce on the spot, as each person calls the next person saying, Hey, I want my $1000. I’m sorry I have to sell something in order to come up with it or in order to pay you back, that’s all the counterparty risk, the buzzword that you hear a lot of us say from time to time. So that cascading of selling is due to the fundamental nature of fractional reserve banking and the system at hand.

Jeff Booth (00:39:46):

Yeah. And thanks for doing that Preston because I think a lot of people don’t realize that. And that function is what requires you to grow forever because if you have contraction, which deflation would happen, that counterpart risk happens overnight and it keeps on and it unwinds. So a bunch of people that defend the monetary system today, what they’re defending is a credit based system that must grow forever through inflation. It cannot be congruent with where technology’s taking us. That system cannot work with it. So what ends up happening is that system must concentrate all control as a byproduct to fighting the free market and that becomes a system change. A very real example, I knew that the US was going to bail out the financial system in 2008, even though it broke the free market rules, capitalism, everything else. But they knew that was going to happen.

Jeff Booth (00:40:47):

We had at the time, tens of millions of dollars in the bank, we had paid letters of credit in my former company, letters of credit all over the world and trade going on with containers all over the world and other banks wouldn’t accept our money, wouldn’t accept our [inaudible 00:41:03]. Why? Because they thought our bank was consultant too. So the trade for four days stopped. Nothing. We couldn’t figure it out.

Jeff Booth (00:41:14):

And so when we talk about how interconnected this system is, if US didn’t come in there then the thing would’ve imploded at that time but that coming in there creates a bigger problem for capitalism itself, because then it turns into crony capitalism and it doesn’t allow the natural clearing of cycles and it enriches all the people who leave her up and create the problem at the expense of the people at the bottom but where we are in the cycle, it’s just accelerated and it will accelerate more. So that’s just a hard reality. And that’s why you need a system change from a new system.

Preston Pysh (00:41:55):

All right. I want to talk about the valuation process of equities, but in a Hyper-Bitcionization world. So when I look at large cap equities today, I can’t buy them because I can’t get around the math because I’m of the opinion that on the other side of this thing, this black hole we’re being sucked into, the interest rates or whatever we would determine risk free rates to be, I have no idea what that… Is that going to be the lightning network that’s determining that?

Preston Pysh (00:42:29):

I don’t know, but if I had to guess today and boy, oh boy, I don’t have a whole lot of confidence in this guess but if I had to guess, that’s what I would guess it is, but let’s just say whatever that is, I just don’t see it being the interest rates that we have today. I think that this, call it a 10 year treasury at 1.5% is a total mirage of what a risk free rate cost of capital should be. And if true, then the 200 basis point premium that’s put on top of that for the price of equity is ludicrous. And so I’m curious what you think about this and then, what would a real interest rate look like on the other side of this?

Jeff Booth (00:43:17):

So we’ve already talked about it through a different lens, the bond market and the equity market is just a smaller version so you’re exactly right. If you believe that this system is going to keep going on forever, then some of those technology companies will still do really well forever and so will some of the resource-

Preston Pysh (00:43:41):

But will they be capitalized at the rate?

Jeff Booth (00:43:45):

It all determined on a mirage.

Preston Pysh (00:43:48):

That’s right.

Jeff Booth (00:43:50):

And that’s why it’s so hard for people to see because they’re living in a world that’s really a make believe world of who gets to press the button and how much money and how much button pressing do I do to destroy people’s time? Like press the button, destroy 40 years of labor or time because all money is, is a trade of our time. And so it’s all on a make believe world that you can hold down interest rates forever and we can have as much money as we want. That’s kind of the… and I’ve said it probably on your show before too but you either have abundance of money and scarcity everywhere else or scarcity in money and abundance everywhere else. That’s the choice.

Jeff Booth (00:44:30):

So your question is really a dependent question. How long can the Mirage keep going on? And there’s a whole bunch of people that believe it’ll go on for a long time. And there’s a whole bunch of people like you and I, that think why do I want to live that world? I’m going to come over here. I’m going to measure my world in Bitcoin and see the truth and see what’s happening?

Preston Pysh (00:44:51):

Well, so it’s even affected like how I’m looking at mining stocks so anything in the sector, right? Because if those are priced at a multiple of 35 and I believe that we’re going to have actual free and open interest rates in the future, not to mention, they’re completely correlated to the price of Bitcoin but it comes with operational risk and execution risk and derivative exposure to energy prices and all this other stuff that these people have to expertly manage.

Preston Pysh (00:45:29):

So those two factors it’s like, hey, I’m getting the same performance as Bitcoin but it comes with all these other risk factors plus it’s coming at a PE of 35. And my expectation is maybe interest rates might be 5, 10, 15% on the other side of this which is going to compress the PE ratio. So like why in the world would I own equity even if they’re putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet today. It’s hard for me to get around the math.

Jeff Booth (00:45:57):

Yeah. The interesting thing Preston, with you because you came at this through a different lens. You came at it as a value investor.

Preston Pysh (00:46:05):

Yes I did.

Jeff Booth (00:46:05):

And the beautiful thing about that lens as a value investor, you’re looking for those mispricing opportunities and that real value and taking advantage of that. And I think what happened with you is you realize everything’s mispriced.

Preston Pysh (00:46:20):

Everything’s manipulated.

Jeff Booth (00:46:22):

Everything is manipulated. The entire stack is manipulated and that manipulation is creating a whole bunch of damage. And I came in and through a different lens. I came in it through, technology is moving this way. This is why everything’s manipulated. Because it must be, to save the system.

Preston Pysh (00:46:38):

Yes.

Jeff Booth (00:46:39):

But that value investor lens gives you a really, why are people making this choice? Because it seems like… They think they’re being responsible fiduciary and everything else and from… But they’re actually incurring more risks.

Preston Pysh (00:46:59):

Yeah. I can’t understand it. And it’s just kind of blows my mind. Anyway. How about UBI? So we’ve seen a little bit of this to date. I think you can maybe make the argument that them redistributing the childcare benefits and things like that on a monthly basis. And then they were talking about like, Hey, maybe we’ll just continue that and maybe you’ll even get the tax credit at the end of the year. I mean, this is really kind of very mild UBI in my opinion. I suspect it’s going to continue and maybe even accelerate moving forward. And I’m just kind of curious to hear your thoughts on how you think some of that might progress.

Jeff Booth (00:47:39):

Yeah. You’re monopoly analogy and my monopoly analogy from before. Those are exactly but no, I’m just saying that you actually did a really good job on yours.

Preston Pysh (00:47:50):

People need to know the context. So Jeff had a post on this. I actually stole this from Ray Dalio. I don’t know how many years ago, he had some speech he was doing and I brought it up on the show a couple times and then, you had an excellent post on it. Well, then I was there talking with Jay the other night and then somebody in the comments was like, you all are stealing this from somebody else. And Jeff’s like, no, it has nothing to do with us. We don’t care. We just think it’s a good analogy and people need to kind of understand what’s happening.

Jeff Booth (00:48:19):

It’s actually fairly worth investigating that a little bit because I don’t care.

Preston Pysh (00:48:25):

I don’t care. I know. I’m with you.

Jeff Booth (00:48:26):

I actually don’t care one aorta and need to be my stuff for everybody to know that’s listening this. If it helps bring more people the understanding, steal it.

Preston Pysh (00:48:36):

Yes.

Jeff Booth (00:48:36):

But I don’t care.

Preston Pysh (00:48:41):

I want to give a shout out really fast and then I want to get back to this. Saifedean Ammous. He, with his book, The Bitcoin Standard, came out, published it, on print. You can buy it on Amazon. You know what else he did? He just put it on a PDF. He said, everybody steal it, take it. It’s for the taking. And you know what? I don’t think it hurt his book sales at all. If anything, I think it might have helped it because people were reading the PDF and they’re like, “Hey, I want to go buy this awesome book” but what a generous thing to do to help people and just put the word out there. Hey, this is what it’s all about and I know you feel the exact same way. I feel the exact same way. Anyway.

Jeff Booth (00:49:22):

No, that’s actually why this is… but you’re… So what ends up happening? We don’t know a lot of times something come in your mind, we’re thinking and somebody will say something and we’ll sleep on it. We don’t even know where we heard it. Comes in comes and all of a sudden, it’s now in our consciousness and we put a slight tweak to that and we think we came up with the idea. We don’t know where we-

Preston Pysh (00:49:44):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:49:44):

So that’s actually why you don’t and the good thing about that is when you do what we do, you don’t even know how much impact you have on other people. You could never know over time and hopefully, that’s a positive impact over time. Now, this monopoly analogy going into it but what I really liked about your version is you said, first, they give you $200 when you go around the board and then the prices go up and everybody keeps the assets and the assets keep rising. And then you can’t get around the board and then they give you $400 and you can’t credit around the board so they give you $600. That isn’t the way to solve the problem. That just concentrates wealth and control in the very few hands faster. And it pushes what we’ve talked about a lot, it pushes, essentially slaver to wide portions of the population.

Preston Pysh (00:50:43):

And dependency.

Jeff Booth (00:50:43):

Exactly and dependency. It Removes individual rights and freedoms through that same thing. It’s kind of modern based laboring for a job that you can never escape the system.

Preston Pysh (00:50:58):

Jeff, you could also make the argument that it increases the volatility of the behavior of the participants that are receiving it. Because now, they’re basically going out there to try to do the lottery ticket where, Hey, if I don’t put it down on this. This is my only shot. So for making a million bucks so I’m going to go out and buy Dogecoin.

Jeff Booth (00:51:15):

And NFTs. That’s exactly what it’s doing because everyone is trying to escape a system that they know has terrible process. And so it forces that on society and as it forces it on society, there’s tons of winners and losers, and you lose all semblance of what is money in the first place. It’s a trade of our time.

Jeff Booth (00:51:39):

And so if you manipulate money, you manipulate our time. So yeah, this whole thing has such traumatic consequences for the world, we live in and the world we’re moving to it’s and Bitcoin’s potentially. And I said this a long time ago and the CNBC crew took it out to me for it. But I think it’s humanity’s greatest invention, at least today. I think if we look back in time, it’ll look like that.

Preston Pysh (00:52:09):

So Tina and I were on our spaces and he was saying that this entire debt market’s going to disappear. There’s going to be no debt market. And I’m very hesitant to go complete binary that it’s going to zero. I think that there’s still going to be a debt market on the other side of this now will be significantly smaller. Absolutely. What size will it be? I have no idea. What are your thoughts on debt markets post Hyper-Bitcoinization?

Jeff Booth (00:52:39):

By the way, this is a very complex topic but I think Tina’s more right.

Preston Pysh (00:52:46):

You think it’s going to zero?

Jeff Booth (00:52:49):

Not zero.

Preston Pysh (00:52:49):

Okay. I’m with you.

Jeff Booth (00:52:57):

I think that’s actually important to… because if you created a giant debt market on top of Bitcoin, all you would trade is these leaders for new leaders and nobody would ever transact in Bitcoin and you’d have a system built on top of it, which forces prices higher and higher, higher, and higher. And yes, it would produce a, if there was this counterparty risk, it would unwind. And so it would… but I suspect if you kept doing that to a great extent, you wouldn’t get the transition I’m talking about

Preston Pysh (00:53:31):

My opinion on the only kind of spot where it would actually occur is in a classic founder scenario with like a let’s go through like a venture capital thing. If…

Jeff Booth (00:53:43):

Let me give you a better example. So let’s imagine that I have 100,000 Bitcoin and I can keep levering that as much as I want and other people don’t. Very few other people have that access. Could my time as well buy up more mining capacity with that scale?

Preston Pysh (00:54:05):

I can’t even get to the point where you would have the ability to do that, Jeff. So in my scenario, the only time that I would see somebody that would do a debt deal is the founder of a startup has basically captured lightning in a bottle and their growth rate is going through the roof, right?

Preston Pysh (00:54:26):

They got everybody and their kid’s sister with Bitcoin in their pocket saying, I want to invest. I want to invest because I can see the growth rate. And the founder goes back to them and says, no, I’m not going to give you equity but I will let you give me some money and maybe it’s a convertible debt deal. Maybe it’s a whatever, right? In that scenario, I can see debt basically rising up in a post Hyper-Bitcoinization scenario. Outside of that scenario, I really haven’t come up with a situation where that would really happen because everybody’s going to want equity.

Jeff Booth (00:55:01):

Then we totally agree. So in that case, and would somebody give debt to that founder? And they would price kind of what is the return on that? Be a higher rate.

Preston Pysh (00:55:13):

Very high rate. Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:55:14):

It would be a higher rate. Yeah. That would happen. The debt markets would not look because their entire system today is the debt market, credit market. It wouldn’t look anything like that. When people think… And remember, on gold, you had to have a layer two tech, which kind of turns into this credit market. And why I think inflation is so easy for us to believe, that we believe within-

Preston Pysh (00:55:40):

It’s because of that-

Jeff Booth (00:55:41):

Because of that…

Preston Pysh (00:55:42):

Yes, I agree with you a 100%.

Jeff Booth (00:55:43):

And then, you have a credit based market that sits on top and essentially nothing on the bottom. And then you must have inflation to be able to make that work and it just gets away on itself.

Preston Pysh (00:55:58):

It’s always just been a convenient narrative that fit because the trusted agent was required to put the currency on top of it. Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:56:06):

Exactly.

Preston Pysh (00:56:07):

I’m with you 100%.

Jeff Booth (00:56:08):

When you pull on that string too, though, why it’s so easy to believe and why it fools so many people in a population, maybe this is different on Bitcoiners specifically, but most of the population wants to believe they can get more today than they can actually get.

Preston Pysh (00:56:29):

Explain that. Explain what you mean by that.

Jeff Booth (00:56:31):

Governments would be forced to spend within their means. but you can’t get elected by spending what’s in your-

Preston Pysh (00:56:37):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:56:39):

So you get elected by telling people that I can give you more than I can spend and then you hide that, how much you’re spending and inflation, which picks the pocket of middle class and poor to give to the rich and it expands government at the same time.

Preston Pysh (00:56:54):

Especially if there’s no term limits.

Jeff Booth (00:56:57):

But either way, like no matter what, on top of that system, you don’t get the truth in part. You can’t because nobody’s come out and say, I’m going to spend. I’m going to make this right and cause an inflationary collapse, which would be the free market, which for the free market-

Preston Pysh (00:57:17):

Yeah, never going to happen.

Jeff Booth (00:57:19):

It will never happen. So we want to believe in this system, we want to believe in Santa Claus in the system which is based on a Mirage but because that belief pattern takes hold, people keep voting for it. They keep voting for it without even a question. It doesn’t matter what side of the aisle you are. It’s the same pattern because both sides require more printing to be able to run the entire thing.

Preston Pysh (00:57:44):

I have to admit him bringing it up challenged my preconceived notion of there being a whole lot more debt in the market. I didn’t think it’d be anything like it is now but I wasn’t thinking that it would be as small as kind of what we just described. But having kind of thought through it, I’m with you. I think that it is going to be much worse. Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:58:04):

[crosstalk 00:58:04]. It is really small. And that’s actually what you want because what Bitcoin does based on layer two is it allows for the velocity and money to happen without the centralized control of that credit based system. So you can have massive velocity of market of the money, if the market demands that.

Preston Pysh (00:58:27):

What’s really fascinating about the Lightning Network? Having set up my node and I’ve got, I think like 300 channels open on my node now. What’s wild is you’re taking those Bitcoin, you’re locking them. And people yell at me when I say locking, they say you’re freeing them. And then that guy can see why they’re saying it. But you’re writing a contract on layer one that establishes this IOU channel between you and this other party that you don’t even know who it is.

Preston Pysh (00:58:57):

And then, whenever you close that contract between the two of you, you adjudicate the balance between whatever the channel amount was. So in a really weird convoluted way, I’m sure a lot of people are going to have issues with me calling it, it’s almost like you’re lending or you’re putting that liquidity into the market to be bounced back and forth.

Preston Pysh (00:59:17):

But you’re doing it in a way where you’re not putting yourself at any type of risk outside of losing your keys like you do in a self custody wallet. There’s really no risk there but yet you’re lending it out but you always retain the same balance at the same time. It’s so weird. And it’s not like anything that we’ve ever seen in financial markets ever before but it’s like lending in a way, I guess, because I can’t go and do other things with it. Like I can’t take those coins and invest them in equity and still have them plugged into those channels.

Jeff Booth (00:59:55):

Exactly. You can’t create a full bunch of different contracts on top of that and everything else unless you sustain that which puts that rigor on a financial system.

Preston Pysh (01:00:07):

Let’s pull the thread on this, right? So if I’m going to keep these coins in these channels and the fees are only yielding, let’s choose kind of an extreme example, let’s say that the coins are only yielding a half of a percent, but we’re in a post Hyper-Bitcoinization world where Fiat’s gone. Right? And I can invest in equity that’s kicking off free cash flows of 10%. Am I going to keep those coins in those channels on layer two? Hell, no.

Jeff Booth (01:00:40):

And they’ll connect to that to a different again, because the system changes so much on equity markets as well. A lot of those equities won’t yield. There will be a race. Prices will keep coming down and the market will shift.

Preston Pysh (01:00:57):

So what do you think the yields would be then?

Jeff Booth (01:00:59):

I’m not sure

Preston Pysh (01:01:01):

You thinking they’re way lower than 10%.

Jeff Booth (01:01:03):

Yeah. I think what ends up happening is over time anyways, that in the transition phase, this is why it’s so complicated because there’s so much noise in the market as one system dies and another system moves on but as prices fell through, just think about kind of what the world look like on the other side and prices are cheaper and cheaper and cheaper everywhere.

Jeff Booth (01:01:27):

And there’s less jobs as well because more AI, more rural products, more and more is happening through automation. Where would the best entrepreneurs go? Would they attack industries that have low returns.

Preston Pysh (01:01:42):

[inaudible 01:01:42].

Jeff Booth (01:01:44):

Or they attack the industries that have the highest opportunity for margin capture. What you’d see is all of the industries that were left out of some of that would be attacked ferociously by entrepreneurs trying to give more value to society because the market incentives force you there or it be because you can make more money by doing that.

Preston Pysh (01:02:04):

And then the focus of that is going to be so much narrower than it was like it is now. Simply because you don’t have all this Fiat chasing every single thing out there. So you’re only going to be investing in… you’re only going to find people willing to depart with their Bitcoin to invest in these types of ideas, unless it’s got a very high probability of success, at least I will.

Jeff Booth (01:02:32):

I think that’s what exactly what will happen. Will it change on the other… so it might slow down the innovations for a little bit but it won’t change it at all on the other side because people will say, wait, that’s a great idea. And some of those ideas are great and they can create incredible returns and what the ideas are great are the ideas that essentially destroy monopoly by using technology to lower the barrier cost to everybody else.

Jeff Booth (01:03:02):

In fact, if you look at Bitcoin through that lens and the monopoly being monopoly on money and that monopoly on money costs a whole bunch of friction costs to make it work. That’s all Bitcoin is. It’s a technology, an open decentralized network that lowers that friction cost dramatically. And as a result, the people that are most locked out of the existing system start using.

Preston Pysh (01:03:28):

So let’s go back to the dichotomy between the layer two yield that you’re collecting by having open channels versus the free cash flows that equity’s kicking off, regardless of whether you think that that is 10% yield in equities or a 4% yield in equities, I would suspect that that layer two fee is going to… you’re going to have Bitcoin that’s pulled out of those channels, which is then going to increase the fee that the remaining channels are getting because now it’s flowing through tighter pipes and then, you’re going to see those try to converge on each other. Correct?

Jeff Booth (01:04:10):

I’m laughing because you’re exactly… It’s the free market taking care of all these things.

Preston Pysh (01:04:14):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (01:04:15):

And that’s exactly what had happened and so the price will move up on some of those channels and the price will move down on some of the other or the interest rate move down on some of the others or up if the free market demands it. They’re real risk free rates will be shown all over the market.

Preston Pysh (01:04:33):

Do you see kind of like an S&P 500 type index representing risk free rates then at that point or would you see it more as like the layer two…

Jeff Booth (01:04:44):

I think that layer two could show that.

Preston Pysh (01:04:50):

Because, I mean, your risk is a little bit of execution risk in making sure that you’re backing up the channels that you have open but in general, it’s pretty straightforward. I would imagine most of all, that’s going to be very automated in the future, but wow.

Jeff Booth (01:05:04):

So it’s amazing though right now, you think about what you’re doing and I don’t have lightning notes set up yet. I’m going to pick your brain on how to do that but think of what you’re doing in this and this is something I try to teach my kids and stuff. If you want to learn where the market’s going, learn Bitcoin, learn Lightning, learn [inaudible 01:05:21], learn what’s happening here because the innovation that’s coming on top of this-

Preston Pysh (01:05:25):

It’s going to be crazy.

Jeff Booth (01:05:28):

There is so much. And I saw a couple of the questions, where is the opportunity? I can’t keep up with the opportunity. We’re reimagining what the world looks like and the people who can imagine what that looks like and use technology to give more value to other people have a front seat at the table. That’s what an entrepreneur does. And that’s what technology does today. The tools to be able to deliver more value to society are staggering and it’s everywhere as system that looked one way is changing into a new system so there’s tons of opportunity.

Preston Pysh (01:06:03):

What’s a topic that we didn’t cover that you love talking about?

Jeff Booth (01:06:07):

I think we’ve talked [inaudible 01:06:12]. Were there any questions that I didn’t answer?

Preston Pysh (01:06:15):

Yeah. I’ve got hundreds that have not been answered, but in interest of your time. I don’t want to keep you. You’re way too kind. You are on vacation, sir. And I am not going to keep you a minute more. I really appreciate you accepting the invite even though you are out there having a good time and seeing the world right now. So thank you so much for coming on and give people a handoff to your book. People, you’ve got to read. If you haven’t read Jeff’s book, I think most the audience has.

Jeff Booth (01:06:46):

Your audience has because you keep on saying it for that.

Preston Pysh (01:06:51):

If you haven’t read Jeff’s book, you’ve got to read Jeff’s book, give them a hand off Jeff.

Jeff Booth (01:06:55):

The price is more, why deflation is it’s really, we’re in a system change. And most people can’t see we’re in a system change because they’re in the system and not able to see this. So it’s just an important context to what’s going on. But Preston, one of the beautiful things about this Bitcoin community is all of the great minds that you get to meet.

Preston Pysh (01:07:19):

Amen.

Jeff Booth (01:07:20):

When I started the journey on the book, I had to say something. I had to because this wasn’t being said. I didn’t know how much my learning would accelerate as far as writing, when I ended the book. And that learning accelerated from people like you from people in this community. So thank you to you too and just incredible friends, incredible relationships that have evolved to this. So it’s… what a ride,

Preston Pysh (01:07:53):

What a ride. [crosstalk 01:07:53] What a time to be alive.

Jeff Booth (01:07:53):

Yeah.

Preston Pysh (01:07:54):

What a time to be alive. Hey, are we going to be roaming around the streets in Miami here in April or?

Jeff Booth (01:08:01):

I sure hope so. I think so. Yeah.

Preston Pysh (01:08:03):

You’re not getting lost again.

Jeff Booth (01:08:04):

Yeah. Exactly.

Preston Pysh (01:08:07):

All right, Jeff. Look forward to the next chat, if we don’t see each other in person. And thank you so much for making time. It’s always a pleasure having you on the show.

Jeff Booth (01:08:15):

Anytime.

Preston Pysh (01:08:17):

If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use, just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learn something new, or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening. And I’ll catch you again next week.

Outro (01:08:50):

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